Re: The DEN -- Heal thyself

["Robert Bacal" <ceo@work911.com>]

I think this is a fascinating topic, where those with the expertise 
can try to apply Deming's work to a real life situation - this list, 
so cudos for the post. I am not sufficiently expert but I hope others 
who are will jump in. But, here's some other perspective.

On 19 Jun 2003 at 16:55, Kromkowski@aol.com wrote:

Please keep the following in mind regarding my comments: "How would 
we know or how would we find out"?
>> Here are a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1.  The DEN is not really set up to be a vehicle for 
> expanding the circle of people familiar with Deming or
> his philosophy.  A web based forum would have a better
> chance of such an aim.  (I've made this point before, and
> Barabasi's research seems to bear out my intuition.)
> Mostly,we have a situation of preaching to the choir.

Re; preaching to the choir, I agree. I suspect that many Deming choir 
members are not capable of expanding the circle, based on what I've 
experienced on line and in face to face interactions. They simply 
lack the skills to do so.

Re: format/web based. One never knows. I doubt that's even close to 
the root cause, and I think it would be tinkering absent other data.
> 
> 2.  The effect of the DEN's "privatization" and claim 
> (which I dispute) to have the copyright on everything posted
> occurred just prior to Feb. 2000 should be investigated.

I didn't know that but I can't imagine that's a factor.

> 
> 3.  Almost everything that can be said about Deming and his
> philosophy and methods has long been said on the DEN.  
> Indeed the commentary and answers to any new posts could be 
> found by simply search the archives. I have written before 
> that the DEN would be better served by simply randomly 
> posting messages from the archives.

Yes. Several years ago when I was an active pain in the behind on 
this list, I pushed as hard as I could to encourage people to STRETCH 
and grow WED's work, or else it would die. You can only quote the 
Bible and interpret the Bible so much, and that only works for true 
believers. In effect, if that ongoing growth doesn't occur (and this 
applies to most fields), they die. I happen to believe Deming's work 
is dead, and I happen to believe it is the Deming followers who 
hammered the nails in. And I believe that's a prime cause for changes 
in this list.

> 4.  The inability of the DEN to accept html based email
> (for example anyone from AOL)might also be investigated.

I don't think so. Because of the nature of subscribers, it might be 
that if we were stuck with html messages, others might leave. (I 
don't "do" html for several reasons).

> 
> 5.  The failure of the DEN to evolve at all.
I hope this manages to get to the list. I'm not sure that my posts 
are getting to it.

How can a discussion group evolve unless the thinking evolves and the 
area of study evolves? How can something evolve when the sole focus 
is on "what Deming said" or "what Deming meant"?

> 
> 6.  The lack of any real and effective means of self-
> assessment and self-improvement by the DEN. But then again,
> made help must come from the outside.  How would we know
> that the DEN is successful? Who knows, maybe when there
> are hardly any posts that means that everyone on the list
> knows everything that they need to know.

Excellent point. Just to add though. Over the last say 18 months, but 
more so in the last twelve, almost all professionally related 
discussion groups have "changed", with percentage of participation 
dropping and total posts dropping. 

So apart from factors related to this list itself, you have to 
understand it operates within a system of things also, and that how 
people use the Internet changes over time, even over a year. I really 
don't have time to keep up with the research, but I do know that one 
or two years ago was the first time that there were drops in how much 
time people used the Internet.

So, I think to address the list, you also need to understand the 
wider systems operating, and that requires additional data.

Robert Bacal
http://performance-appraisals.org, Performance Management Resource 
Center. http://articles911.com - Over 2000 work related articles 
listed. http://relationships911.org for the relationships library.