Re: DEN demise

["Robert Bacal" <ceo@work911.com>]

John, for what's it's worth, I agree with a good deal of what you've 
said, perhaps with some slightly different perspective. I do think 
that America has lost it's "moral mandate" to lead the world. Whether 
that loss leads to a complete spiral downward will depend on who ends 
up leading the country. Anyway...

On 24 Jun 2003 at 4:55, John wrote:

> I have tried on at least three different occasions to raise the
> relevancy of the Deming material, by proposing that is germane to the
> rich nation/poor nation problem that is such a breeding ground for
> anti-western sentiment. There have been no follow-ups either private
> or in the forum, so I've supposed people would rather pursue the
> discussion of six-sigma's shortcomings Ad Terminem than to wonder how
> Deming's teaching might be used to solve an important economic problem
> in today's world.  I've given up trying to get anyone interested from
> this group.  

In the years I've been visiting this group, I've rarely seen any 
desire to use Deming's work to solve problems. I've seen a desire to 
use Deming's work, though, and that may be a subtle distinction but 
an important one. I keep returning to the same point, which means 
I've blinded myself or the point is particularly important.

...that "movements" built around a cult of personality (and I have no 
doubt that's what has existed re: Deming) cannot survive without 
growth and modifcation of the theories underlying the movement. If 
you look at Freud, for example, you see someone who's ideas HAVE 
survived, but not for their own validity as much as how the 
influenced and launched dozens of people who modified, built and spun 
off of his work. Oddly enough, though, the strict Freudian movement 
is dead, and for the very reason I speak about...that strict 
Freudians indoctrinated each other as would a religious movement 
indoctrinating its disciples. No growth within. One had to go outside 
the movement. Those that went outside kept Freud's ideas alive 
historically.

Re: you specific application. I don't know why you wouldn't get 
responses, but perhaps one reason might be a growing realization that 
in any practical terms, Deming's work has ZERO value for addressing 
the issue you mention. It has THEORETICAL VALUE. It has no practical 
value, IMHO. 

One of the implications regarding change and thinking in systems is 
that many problems are embeded in a system that is embedded in a 
bigger system and so on and so on. So, practically speaking, you 
might be able to impact on a very local part of the problem, but the 
root causes lie non-locally and in the huge systems... the political 
systems and structures, population demographics, economics, 
nationalism and just plain old psychological factors which nobody may 
be able to change, ever.

So, perhaps people are interested in doing their local things, and 
not interested in discussing how the world could be transformed. 
Utopians and those who really enjoy banging heads against walls are 
getting fewer and farer betweener!.

I> As an alternative theory to Kromkowski's, perhaps the group has served
> its purpose and is dying a sort of natural death.  The interest and
> enthusiasm for Deming's ideas is just not around.   It's alive and
> well in some limited venues, but basically the number of people in
> business in America who have ever heard of Deming (which has never, in
> my experience, been a high percentage) is clearly going down.   Not
> only do most business people not think he's relevent, they don't even
> know who he is.

I agree. But I was saying that years ago on this list. Just to add, I 
suspect that those that are interested in Deming's ideas are either 
students looking at his work as a curiosity, or older people who have 
made the shift from utopia creation to local issues, and prefer to 
marshall their energies in ways they can achieve results.

> 
> The ongoing efforts to keep Deming's ideas in the mainstream have been
> a disappointment.   It retrospect it might have been done differently
> with less emphasis on control of material and more on spreading the
> material around, but hindsight, as we all know, is always 20/20.  I am
> not hopeful however that there will be change such that a new broad
> distribution of his Teachings will bloom in America or elsewhere.  Who
> would do it?  The opinion I've gotten from a number of formerly
> interested persons is that his ideas need to be 're-cast'.  Re-cast
> into what?  By whom?

It's probably over. It was probably over years ago. Deming 
unwittingly cast himself as a "figure" - a character, a persona, that 
attracted many of the wrong people for the wrong reasons, and the 
discussions on this list used to reflect that. If "followers" spend 
their time making sure that things are interpreted right, and that 
Deming's work exist untouced, then the only end is destruction of the 
work. (I'm broken recording this).

Deming's demeanor attracted some very arrogant, smug and rigid 
disciples -- not people eager to learn, to explore, question, 
criticize and expand his work.

The BEST indicator of why the movement has failed is the almost total 
lack of criticism (on this list or elsewhere) of Deming's work. 

When I die, and IF I actually do anything worthy of remembering, the 
LAST thing I'd want is for people to adhere to "what I said", or 
spend time trying to figure out "what I meant". 

I hope that if any of my own work survives, that people who come 
after try to beat the crap out of whatever ideas I've left. Because 
it's the ONLY way any ideas survive.

(no risk, mind you, of that happening, or of my leaving anything 
significant behiind--just a hypothetical)

Now, here's my suggestion. Spend the next month on this list 
discussing where Deming was wrong.

...maybe that can breathe some new life into his work, and knock some 
smugness from the disciples.

Robert Bacal
http://performance-appraisals.org, Performance Management Resource 
Center. http://articles911.com - Over 2000 work related articles 
listed. http://relationships911.org for the relationships library.